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President Townsend:
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Good evening ladies and gentlemen. We are very privilege tonight to have you here and a
very distinguished speaker and some very knowledgeable experts on the faculty of West
Georgia College. Let me say a few words about the meaning of this event. It's always our
interest at West Georgia College to offer a variety of speakers who will come within
specified periods of time to offer remarks, their expertise, and answer questions, engage
in dialogue with the audience, our students, our faculty and our staff and persons from
the community.
This past Spring, approximately in the month of March, Drs. Steely and Wagner asked if we
might be interested in inviting Senator Herman Talmadge to West Georgia College for the
purpose of two things. One, to record some experiences from his political life as Governor
and Senator, a very distinguished record that goes back 30 years?..30 years?
..(unidentified: 30 years, between 40 and 50, over 40). Well, one says 30, one says 40,
he'll make that clear to us later. And for the other purpose, to have some public
discussions, lectures and dialogue on particular topics. I was very happy to agree to
this, and to that end I was even more delighted to suggest to the new Chancellor,
Chancellor Propst, that we would honor the Senator and honor West Georgia College by
appointing him an adjunct professor of History and of Political Science, and this was
done.
Senator Talmadge has already recorded some of his experiences...political experiences,
and tonight is the first of his public presentations to West Georgia College and its
supporters. There will be other speakers throughout the year. We have had Marshall Frady.
Tonight is Senator Talmadge. We will have later in the year authors, Georgia authors, who
will present various aspects of the literary scene. And further ah...programs will be
developed. All of this, in every case, is for the edification and the instruction of the
college community. Their purpose is to add a dimension, a considerable dimension, to the
instructional program that we normally offer. Their purpose is of course to give you
information and insights into various categories of our culture.
To introduce tonight's program is one of the two gentlemen who gave ah...birth to this
particular series of recordings and discussions. Professor Don Wagner is well known to
us at the college. He is an Associate Professor of Political Science, in his own right a
distinguished scholar, and a very effective and well regarded teacher of Political
Science...Dr. Wagner.
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Professor Wagner:
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Thank you Dr. Townsend. (applause) A few months ago, as Dr. Townsend said, Professor Mel
Steely and I got into our heads the idea of video taping some conversations with Senator
Talmadge that has since grown into the idea of...of video taping the memoirs of a number of
political figures in Georgia. And I see...I've seen a couple of candidates in the
audience: Representative Lee, Senator Garner, and ah...Mayor Stallings. I don't know if
ah...Representative Thomas...Thomas is here or not but you're all potential material for
the West Georgia Political Archives also. (laughter)
Anyway, when Mel Steely and I began this with Senator Talmadge, we conceived of it as his
recollections of his life and his career in public service, kind of an oral history of
the Talmadge era in Georgia. When we started we had no idea of what it would be like. I
had never met Senator Talmadge. Dr. Steely had met him only briefly on a few occasions.
After our first few sessions, we realized that what we were engaged in was a rather
extraordinary experience. Senator Talmadge turned out to be a walking history book with
an encyclopedic memory of the events and personalities that have come his way over the
past forty to fifty years ah...in his political life. We thought, and Senator Talmadge
agreed, that the greater West Georgia community could participate in these conversations
at some point, and this evening is the first program of that sort, as Dr. Townsend said.
We plan to have similar programs Winter and Spring terms on the general topics of the
Vietnam War and Civil Rights.
Let me tell you about the procedure we'll follow tonight because this will all be video
taped also, and it will be a part of the archives record of the Talmadge years. After
Senator Talmadge's presentation, he'll be questioned by a panel of academicians:
Professor Don Wells, Professor Jim Gay, Professor Joe Cumming. I will tell you more about
them later, those of you who don't know them. When the panel completes its questions, all
of you will have a chance to ask questions of Senator Talmadge or one of the panelists. I
would ask you to do this if you have a question. Approach the microphone in the center of
the auditorium here, identify yourself and state to whom your question is addressed. You
will be video taped too, so you will be part of the archives.
Our topic tonight is Watergate, and our principal speaker as you know is Senator Herman
Talmadge. Senator Talmadge has, we've made reference to this both Dr. Townsend and I, a
long and distinguished career in public service. It's 30, 40 or 50 years depending on
who's counting. It began with his years, well let's see, that would be 40...between 40 and
50...beginning with his years of active duty in the United States Navy during World War
II, up through his years as Governor of Georgia, and from 1956 until 1980, 24 years, in
the United States Senate. One of the historical highlights of Senator Talmadge's career
took place shortly after the 1972 presidential election when he was selected by his
colleagues to serve on the Senate Select Committee on the Campaign Practices of the 1972
Presidential Election. That was the year, most of you will remember, the Nixon landslide
victory over Senator George McGovern. The Select Committee to which Senator Talmadge was
appointed chaired by Senator Sam Irvin of North Carolina, came to be called the Watergate
Committee, and it played a pivotal roll in that amazing sequence of events that led to
the only resignation in American history of a sitting President.
Well, enough of all that, I am not supposed to be telling you all this anyway. Without
further ado please join me in giving a warm welcome to Senator Herman Talmadge.
(applause)
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Senator Talmadge:
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Thank you very much Don, President Townsend, ladies and gentlemen. As Dr. Townsend told
you, I'm a member of the faculty over here now, but without compensation. (laughter) And
in as much as I get a pretty good welfare check from the government, I suppose that's all
right. In fact, in the last four or five years I've learned what makes welfare so popular.
(laughter)
It's a pleasure indeed to be back at West Georgia College and in Carroll County. My
family ties, as you know, are strong here. And associated with this college a great many
years, and the people of Carroll County have been extremely generous to me. And I can
never repay the deep debt of gratitude that I owe to the people of this section of the
state.
As Don told you, I've been instructed to talk to you about Watergate, and as a junior
member of this faculty I must comply with his request. (laughter) You will recall that
during the Presidential Campaign of 1972, when George McGovern was the Democratic nominee,
Nixon, the incumbent was the Republican nominee, it appeared in the newspapers an item
that didn't attract a great deal of attention in this area of the country about a
burglary of the Democratic National Committee that occurred in the Watergate Hotel
complex, in the District of Columbia. George McGovern tried to make a good deal of it,
but no one paid much
attention. The Washington Post tried to make a good deal of it. No one paid much
attention. And Nixon went on to win by an overwhelming majority, carrying every state in
the Union except Massachusetts, and McGovern also carried the District of Columbia. One
of the most overwhelming elections in the history of our Republic.
When the Congress convened in 1973, a resolution was offered in the Senate by the
Majority Leader, and perhaps others, to create a special Select Committee on Campaign
Activities of the previous Presidential Election. It was agreed to by unanimous vote of
the United States Senate; no one objected. I didn't pay any attention to it. I certainly
was not a candidate for appointment on that committee. I was in my office one morning a
day or two later, transacting business as usual. My telephone rang. Mike Mansfield, the
Majority Leader, was on the line. He said, "Herman, will you serve on the Watergate
Committee?" I said, "Mike, as you know I'm already carrying a pretty heavy load. I'm
Chair man of the Agricultural Committee. I'm Vice Chairman of the Senate Finance
Committee. I'm Chairman of the Subcommittee on Health of the Senate Finance Committee.
I'm on the Joint Internal Revenue and Taxation Committee, and the Democratic Policy
Committee. So my load is all rather, rather heavy." He said, "Herman, will you serve on
the Watergate Committee?" (laughter) I said, "Mike, since you put it in that manner, of
course you know I cannot refuse." So the Committee was appointed, supposed to be by
ah... nonpartisan. Most of the members thereof were not candidates for President, and I
presume that was the reason I was selected. Cause you can barely find seven senators who
are not candidates for President. (laughter) And the Chairman of the Committee was Sam
Irvin of North Carolina as you know. The best qualified member of the United States
Senate to chair that committee. He liked to call himself a country lawyer, but he was a
very profound Harvard graduate, a keen student of history, the best constitutional
scholar in the United States Senate, and the best constitutional lawyer in the United
States Senate. The Vice Chairman of the Committee was ah...Howard Baker from Tennessee,
and ah... we had three Republicans on the Committee and four Democrats. So the first
thing we had to do, of course, was to organize the Committee, and select the staff. And
we started holding hearings. And much to my amazement all three of the networks in the
United States were covering those hearings from gavel to gavel. Also Public Education
Television. I didn't see that it was all that important. Later on I started to understand.
We started off hearing witnesses that no one ever heard of before, and their testimony
was most inconsequential. And why that necessitated NBC and ABC and CBS to cancel
everything they had to the exclusion of holding Watergate hearings from gavel to gavel
was somewhat of a mystery to me. But later on it got more interesting. The first
important witness that we had was John Dean, who had been the President's lawyer. And he
was the one that had been talking to the District Attorney about trying to get immunity to
testify. And John Dean had a prepared statement that he spent six hours reading. After he
read that six hour statement, the attorneys for our committee and also the Senators
investigated John Dean. Interrogated him for one full week without any substantial
discrepancy in his testimony. You know the thing that usually traps up liars is because
they can't remember what they said, and that traps `em. When Dean got through testifying
with all of the able lawyers and all of the able United States Senators interrogating him
without any substantial discrepancy in his prepared six hour statement, I made the
statement that either he was telling the truth or else he was the most gifted liar since
Ananias. (laughter) Now part of that time there was no substantial evidence of the
President's involvement. Of course, there had been some previous evidence that the
Attorney General John Mitchell was involved, but that was the first witness that we had
that involved the President of the United States himself. Well, we were somewhat
skeptical of it. John was a young man; I presume in his late twenties or early thirties.
And you don't take the word of some young individual like that against the President of
the United States without any corro...cor... corroboration. But it did raise a question
in our minds. And we went forward with other witnesses.
The most arrogant witness that we had during the entire hearing was a fellow named
Erlichman that had been one of the right hand men to the President. And had these two
ah...people, Erlichman and Haldeman, that were supposed to be the keepers of the palace
door, and made the decisions, and were supposed to be somewhat arrogant. Mr. Erlichman
was somewhat arrogant when he started, but he was not as arrogant when he completed his
testimony. And we had heard, of course, that Mr. Haldeman was even more arrogant than
Erlichman. I was surprised when Mr. Haldeman came in to testify and sounded like an eagle
scout about to receive his award or else some soldier that had won a medal of honor coming
home to Carrollton, Georgia for a parade and to be decorated. He was the all American
boy. He did a superb job as a witness.
And then we were traveling on without making much progress of any kind till a fellow by
the name of Alexander Butterfield came as a witness. And he'd been over at the White
House in some capacity, and was then, I think, with the CAB. And, ah...he testified that
the President of the United States taped all conversations that occurred in his office.
Of course it shook us up a good deal at that point. In the first place we wondered why
anyone would tape all conversations without the knowledge, consent or permission of the
people who were involved in the conversations. `Cause many of them were very private,
very confidential. They thought they were talking only for the benefit of the President
of the United States and no one else. But we knew even more important that if all
those conversations had been taped in the White House then there was evidence that would
either corroborate John Dean's testimony or else prove that it would be false. So we
immediately, first by request, requested that the President make those tapes available.
He negotiated with us a little while on the idea that he might do so. And then he
flatfootedly rejected the idea that those tapes would be made available claiming
executive privilege. Now I think there is such a thing as executive privilege. That's the
reason I was surprised that the tapes were made in the first place. Confidential advice
in the operations of the government by lawyers or cabinet officials to the President of the
United States should be confidential and privileged. And from the first President of the
United States to the present time it's been so held. But it is not privileged if you're
involved in the commission of a crime or the cover up of a crime, and later the Supreme
Court of the United States so held. So after the President refused to make the tapes
available by request, we finally issued a subpoena, and he still refused to comply with
the subpoena, and, of course, it was litigated as you know, and went all the way to the
Supreme Court of the United States. And then when the tapes were made available all of
the charges that John Dean had made in his testimony and his interrogation turned out to
be accurate. And it corroborated the testimony, and then others filled in in other areas.
And about that time the House of Representatives...as you know impeachment of a federal
officer must originate in the House. The House acts as a Grand Jury, and they prefer the
charges. And then the Senate sits as a court and hears the charges. About the time the
tapes came in the public domain, the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives
had been holding some hearings, and they were about to pass a resolution of impeachment
against the President of the United States which would have been sent to the United States
Senate for trial. And about that time the President of the United States realized that
the better part of wisdom was to resign. So he did so.
There are few things that are interesting to me about those entire hearings. The first
thing is, why on earth the President of the United States didn't burn up the tapes just
as soon as Butterfield stated that he'd been taping all the conversations. It was his
property. He could burn `em up if he saw fit. Now, why didn't he burn `em up? I think
this. Nixon was reared in a very poor home. He had never accumulated much wealth. He
knew that those tapes would be extremely valuable in writing his memoirs, and any
president's memoirs command a substantial sum of money. In fact, I think the Speaker of
the House O'Neil's just announced ah...that he is going to receive one million and a half
for his memoirs, and he was only the Speaker. And I think the ah...President of Chrysler
has recently announced he's about to get one million and a half for his memoirs. So I
think there are two reasons why Nixon didn't burn the tapes. Number one, he sincerely
believed that the theory of executive privilege probably would hold up. Number two, he
wanted those tapes in his possession so he could use them as raw material to write his
memoirs. And for those reasons I think he did not burn `em.
Now there was another interesting thing about the Watergate hearings. We started off, as
I told you, with all three networks and Public Education T.V. from gavel to gavel, and
Public Education Television continued from gavel to gavel right on through the conclusion.
And thousands and countless thousands of people throughout the length and breadth of the
United States would sit up virtually all night after they got home from work and watch
those hearings from gavel to gavel. It was interesting from a personal standpoint to me.
My mail has always been substantially heavy, but it got up to 3,500 letters a day during
the Watergate hearings from all over the United States. And wherever I'd go in an airport
in Chicago or Los Angeles or somewhere else, people would rush up to me wanting my
autograph. And people running for Congress and Sheriff and the legislature in the Mid West
and other sections of the country would come by my office wanting to have their photograph
made with me for campaign purposes. Well, I thought, this was a novel experience
(laughter) for a southern Senator that's supposed to be a segregationist having these
Yankees come by wanting their photograph made for campaign purposes. So that was
extremely novel.
And there was something else. The hearings were held in what we called the Caucus Room of
the old Senate Office Building, now known as the Russell Building. The Caucus Room will
seat probably 500 people. And we would open the doors and start the hearings at about
10:00, as I recall, every morning. Maybe on a few occasions earlier than that. And when
I'd get down to the office, and I'd get there as a rule about 7 a.m., there'd be these
long lines stretched out on the side walk sometimes a quarter of a mile long for people
lined up waiting their turn to get in to hear the, what we called, the Watergate
Proceedings. College students from all over the United States would ride all night long
to drive to Washington, D.C. to get there before daylight to try to get in to hear those
hearings. And it was an interesting phenomenon. Ah...all in all I look upon those
hearings as probably the greatest civics lesson in the history of our republic. Most
people have taken civics. Most people have studied some history. But they know very
little about the operation of the government. And they could sit there day after day and
hear what was going on, a Senate committee holding hearings about improprieties involving
cabinet officials, White House officials and, yes, even the President of the United
States. And it was a drama that captivated the attention of, not only the people of the
United States, but the whole world in nineteen hundred and seventy-three.
Now, that's about it, and I'll respond to any questions, Don?
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